World of Warcraft: Forever · class guide
Subtlety Rogue: PvP
How Subtlety Rogue fights other players in the open world: where it ranks on the PvP tier lists, and why.
Forecast. Rated from the client data and our research, before anyone has played it at this level on this build. Where the data stops, the write-up says what it assumed. Rated as of , build 1.60.1.70450.
Battlegrounds are not rated yet; builds, matchups and battleground roles are being written for this spec. Honor, ranks, gear and the battlegrounds themselves are on PvP in World of Warcraft: Forever.
Verdict
- At 60
- Ranked 4 of 28 on Open-World PvP
The quietest stealther in the class, with
Preparation to reset its escapes, so it picks the fight and nearly always leaves. - While leveling
- Ranked 8 of 28 on Open-World PvP Leveling
The strongest early stealther, with
Camouflage and 
Master of Deception from 10, but modest damage until 
Hemorrhage at 30. - Battlegrounds
- Not rated yet.
Profile
The rubric the lists score on, 1 to 5 on each line, with the weight each line carries. The class’s other specs are shown at 60 for comparison.
| Criterion | Weight | At 60 | While leveling | Assassination | Combat |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Burst and kill pressure | 25 | 4 | 3 | 5 | 4 |
| Survival and escapes | 20 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 |
| Control | 15 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 4 |
| Fighting outnumbered | 15 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 4 |
| Choosing the fight | 10 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 |
| Sustain between fights | 10 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
| Group fights | 5 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
| Weighted score | 3.80 | 3.05 | 3.85 | 3.80 |
Strengths and weaknesses
At 60
| Strengths | Weaknesses |
|---|---|
Preparation resets  Vanish and its other cooldowns | No heal at any level |
| Master of Deception and Camouflage stealth | No cleave |
 Sap and  Blind at half energy | Lowest sustained damage of the three |
 Elusiveness and  Ghostly Strike | No immunity or stun break |
| Stun chain from Stealth | Flash Powder and  Blinding Powder costs |
Why it ranks where it does on Open-World PvP
Subtlety opens from Stealth with 
Cheap Shot, a 4 s stun, or 
Garrote or 
Ambush. 
Premeditation gives two free combo points, Improved Ambush adds 45% crit, 
Cutthroat gives a free Ambush, and Preparation resets Vanish and the Cheap Shot opener. Its control chain matches 
Assassination's, with Sap and Blind at half energy through Dirty Tricks, and 
Kidney Shot, 
Gouge and 
Kick on top. Its damage over a long fight is the lowest of the three Rogues.
It has the best escape kit in the class: Preparation (10 minutes) resets its other Rogue cooldowns, such as Vanish, Blind, 
Sprint, 
Evasion and Kick, Elusiveness takes 90 s off Vanish and Blind, and Ghostly Strike adds 15% dodge for 7 s. Against two players it has no cleave, so Preparation buys a second escape rather than a win. Master of Deception and Camouflage let it choose every fight, and it has no heal, so it bandages after each one. For a group it saps casters, blinds, scouts under Stealth and uses 
Distract.
It is not S because it has no heal at any level, cannot kill two players, and has the lowest sustained damage of the Rogues. Every part of the level-60 build is projected. 3.80 is 0.45 short of S.
While leveling
| Strengths | Weaknesses |
|---|---|
| Camouflage and Master of Deception from 10 | Modest damage until Hemorrhage |
| Evasion at 8 and Vanish at 22 | Run-or-die against two |
| Ghostly Strike and Elusiveness | No cleave |
| Dirty Tricks halves Sap and Blind cost | No heal |
| Premeditation at 25 | Long fights |
Why it ranks where it does on Open-World PvP Leveling
Subtlety's damage is modest until Hemorrhage at 30 and 
Serrated Blades. Improved Ambush comes from 15 and Ambush at 18, Premeditation at 25, Cheap Shot at 26 with 
Initiative and Kidney Shot at 30. Gouge, Sap and Kick come at 6, 10 and 12 as for every Rogue, Dirty Tricks halves the cost of Sap and Blind, and Blind arrives at 34.
Camouflage and Master of Deception from 10 make it the strongest early stealther. Evasion at 8, Vanish at 22, 
Setup, Ghostly Strike at about 20 and Elusiveness early give it good survival, and Preparation arrives at 30. Against two attackers Distract and Vanish at 22 reset the fight, and with no cleave it is run-or-die. It has no heal and low damage, so fights run long, and Sap and Distract are its group tools until Blind at 34.
It is not A because it is run-or-die against two attackers, its damage is low until Hemorrhage at 30, and long fights run with no heal. 3.05 is 0.20 short of B.
Leveling timeline
The level each of Subtlety’s PvP tools arrives. A talent shows at the earliest level a point can reach it; the Talented Legacy perk brings talents 5 levels sooner.
- Level 1 Stealth
- Level 6 Gouge
- Level 8 Evasion
- Level 10 Sap, Sprint
- Level 12 Kick
- Level 20
Crippling Poison, Ghostly Strike (talent) - Level 22 Vanish
- Level 25 Premeditation (talent)
- Level 26 Cheap Shot
- Level 30 Kidney Shot, Preparation (talent), Hemorrhage (talent)
- Level 34 Blind
Races
The Rogue’s races as Races PvP ranks them, best first.
Alliance
Human: Will to Survive is the only full stun break in the game, and 
Ruthless and 
Perception add steady crit and stealth detection.
Dwarf: 
Stoneform is the strongest defensive racial of any race, and the widest class choice helps, but burst and mobility are the weakest.
Night Elf: 
Shadowmeld, extra stealth and speed give the joint best mobility of any race, and 
Elune's Light is a crit burst, but it breaks nothing.
Gnome: 
Escape Artist breaks roots and slows and its burst racial adds +10% damage, but Gnome lacks defense, mobility and class choice.
Skyborne (High Order): 
Wind Blessed gives steady haste, but High Order has no control break, no defensive and only a glide for mobility.
Horde
Undead: 
Will of the Forsaken breaks fear and charm and 
Touch of the Grave drains in combat, but it has the weakest burst and no mobility.
Orc: 
Blood Fury is the strongest burst cooldown of any race, and 
Hardiness and 
Shatter Curse give some breaks and defense, but no mobility.- Skyborne (Windshaper): Wind Blessed gives steady haste and
Skysight a 30 second sprint, but it has no control break and no defensive. 
Troll: 
Berserking is a burst for seven classes, but Troll has no control break or mobility and 
Rapid Regeneration works out of combat.
What we don’t know yet
At 60
Rated on assumptions:
- The level-60 build, including Preparation and
Thousand Cuts, is projected from client data and the tree. Nothing past the beta cap of 30 has been played. - Death Mark is announced as the capstone that replaces Thousand Cuts, with no numbers given.
- Diminishing returns on Forever stuns, incapacitates and fears are not documented.
What would move it: Diminishing returns being documented, or play past 30 showing Preparation and Hemorrhage working as projected.
While leveling
Rated on assumptions:
- Preparation and
Dirty Deeds are level-30 talents in the client tree, not yet tested against players; Quietus is projected from the own tree. Levels 31 to 60 are projected; nobody has played past the beta cap of 30. - Blind at 34 is client data and unplayed.
What would move it: Beta play at 30 showing Preparation and Dirty Deeds changing fights, or an answer to two attackers.
PvP in the ability notes
- Sap: Changed: no longer breaks Stealth, though it still needs it (the client's stance data and the tooltip: "Requires Stealth"), so you can Sap one mob and still open on a second while staying hidden. Still out-of-combat Humanoids only, 65 energy; it can't trigger weapon procs. PvP only: Sapping a flagged player flags you.
Mind-numbing Poison: 40–60% slower casting; 75–150 charges, half again Classic's. Useful on caster packs and in PvP.
Wound Poison: Stronger: each stack reduces healing by more than Classic (67 at rank 1, 165 at rank IV, was 135). Mostly PvP.